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Silvia
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 267
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| queen wrote: | lolololol......very good...very good.....Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster......
nothing if not creative.... :D
*hugs* silvia..... |
I wish I could claim credit... http://www.venganza.org/ |
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Silvia
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| eo11 wrote: | | the Founding Fathers meant to give of the freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion |
Please explain how being required to participate in a Christian prayer in school is freedom of religion.
These great men, despite their own powerful religious beliefs, despite their belief that religion is needed for good governance, refrained from requiring members of congress to say a prayer when they convened. Of course they believed that religion is necessary for good governance - they did not believe in government enforcement of religion. Political candidates are not forbidden from having faith, in fact, most claim they do, and most citizens view it as important when they vote, to one degree or another. Our founding fathers would say that's a good thing, absolutely! But political candidates are not required to have faith. The distinction, once again, is that which is chosen and that which is required.
As for the ACLU playbook, I wasn't aware I was quoting from them. Maybe I should read it some time, sounds like they have some important things to say. |
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Silvia
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| loangod wrote: | And if someone wants to work for me, they are required to respect and obey my orders, they don't have to like me, but respect and obey. If not, they're gone.....and not with any authority given by government. So I really don't get the part about obeying a teacher. They should as you or I should respect a person of higher authority in our jobs. I guess I never heard of a teacher requiring children to pray in Public schools....parochial maybe, but not public.
Since I work for a bank, and we are regulated heavily by various government agencies and told what we can do and what we can't, does that make me a government employee too? :roll: :mrgreen: :wink: |
Points (1) and (2) do not apply to you. Citizens are not required by law to bank with you, nor work for you. Nor does your salary come from the government.
Besides, if you required your employees to pray, then fired them if they did not, I believe it would be grounds for a (successful) discrimination lawsuit. |
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loangod
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Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 73
Location: Hinterland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvia wrote: | | loangod wrote: | And if someone wants to work for me, they are required to respect and obey my orders, they don't have to like me, but respect and obey. If not, they're gone.....and not with any authority given by government. So I really don't get the part about obeying a teacher. They should as you or I should respect a person of higher authority in our jobs. I guess I never heard of a teacher requiring children to pray in Public schools....parochial maybe, but not public.
Since I work for a bank, and we are regulated heavily by various government agencies and told what we can do and what we can't, does that make me a government employee too? :roll: :mrgreen: :wink: |
Points (1) and (2) do not apply to you. Citizens are not required by law to bank with you, nor work for you. Nor does your salary come from the government.
Besides, if you required your employees to pray, then fired them if they did not, I believe it would be grounds for a (successful) discrimination lawsuit. |
Who said anything about telling someone to pray, other than you. You stated that students must obey teachers, just as my employees must obey me. They don't , they're gone, as I said. Likewise, citizens are not required to be educated by public schools by law. I believe you that is not discrimination.....unless you're a card carrying ACLU memeber. :roll:
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Wandering Nick
valued friend and alliance member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 832
Location: With the hookah smoking catepillar!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvia wrote: | | loangod wrote: | And if someone wants to work for me, they are required to respect and obey my orders, they don't have to like me, but respect and obey. If not, they're gone.....and not with any authority given by government. So I really don't get the part about obeying a teacher. They should as you or I should respect a person of higher authority in our jobs. I guess I never heard of a teacher requiring children to pray in Public schools....parochial maybe, but not public.
Since I work for a bank, and we are regulated heavily by various government agencies and told what we can do and what we can't, does that make me a government employee too? :roll: :mrgreen: :wink: |
Points (1) and (2) do not apply to you. Citizens are not required by law to bank with you, nor work for you. Nor does your salary come from the government.
Besides, if you required your employees to pray, then fired them if they did not, I believe it would be grounds for a (successful) discrimination lawsuit. |
There was a lawsuit, I think in Illinois? Where they tried to pass a law where you had to confess belief in God to be hired and this guy took it all the way to the supreme court.
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Silvia
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| loangod wrote: | | Who said anything about telling someone to pray, other than you. You stated that students must obey teachers, just as my employees must obey me. They don't , they're gone, as I said. Likewise, citizens are not required to be educated by public schools by law. I believe you that is not discrimination.....unless you're a card carrying ACLU memeber. :roll: |
We are talking about prayer in school, right? About integration of church and state, right? The first post, containing: "Dear God: Why didn't you save the school children at xxx school? Reply: Dear Concerned Student: I am not allowed in schools. Sincerely, God." I mean, that's what I'm talking about. Otherwise I don't have a clue what you meant by: "And if someone wants to work for me, they are required to respect and obey my orders, they don't have to like me, but respect and obey. If not, they're gone.....and not with any authority given by government." Surely you were referring to my statements about the government giving teachers the legal authority to punish students, which can be abused if the teacher requires students to pray? Otherwise your statement isn't consistent with anything else that's been discussed in this thread. What did you mean by that statement if it wasn't in reference to students being required to pray by their teachers?
Students are required to attend school until the age of 16, by law. For those families without the time for home schooling or the money for private (which are mostly religious anyway), public schooling is the only option. In addition to required attendance, teachers are still paid by the federal government and are therefore beholden to federal regulations. And finally, any citizen who discriminates in a harmful way against a person because of their faith is similarly beholden to federal law. There are three ways in which teachers cannot force students to pray, pick one, I don't care.
And for goodness sakes quit it with the ACLU. There are people in the world who defend the rights of human beings besides the far left liberal nutsos. My personal motivation comes from the libertarians, you know, those far right conservative nutsos?
Edit: It occurred to me that my motivation also comes from my Quaker (Society of Friends) upbringing. One of the important principles of the Quaker faith is no prosteletyzing. Though I'm not Quaker anymore, nor a militia member anymore, some of their beliefs are still a part of me today. |
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loangod
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Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 73
Location: Hinterland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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How did this spin to just a prayer in school debate. You are the one. I thought this was separation of church and state. And as for being Libertarian, that's great. I like a lot of their stands. Now pass the joint....... :D
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queen
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 3050
Location: somewhere in Chiefs Country
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: |
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cute, loan.....NOT.
but typical
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Lord Clarke
football friend
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 400
Location: South of the North Pole
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Listen, I am jumping in here late, but may I interject, and hopefully EO or Loan already explained this to you, but just in case....the amendment that forbids the governent from making a law respecting an establishment of religion is not about quoting God, or having it on the court walls, or anything else....its about not creating a state run church, such as the Church of England. But we are still a country founded on Christian principles. Thats the way our founding father's wanted it, thats the way it should be. And its for the benefit of all people. Show me 1 of the 10 Commandments that hurt you or any other person, Christian, Muslim, Jew or worshiper of toadstools?
In God we Trust is on my coins from 1872, so thats at least 136 years its been on our money. Are those words hurting you? I don't understand it. 98% of Americans profess some form of God.....only 2% are aetheists.....the coins do not say WHICH God, just God....and heck, the Jews, Christians and Allah all worship the SAME God, just split at some point in history....so how are these words bad?
Constitutional Amendments can be good. Like repealing prohibition....a bad Amendment. But Prayer is a silly thing to create an Amendment against....if you don't want to pray at a graduation commencement, or at work, even if you are working for the federal government, don't . But dammit, how long will it be before you see people arrested for giving the sign of the cross on the streets of America? I mean, those streets were built by our government. So you just violated the separation of church and state (a falsehood anyway, but hey, what the f--k, lets believe in the lie perpetrated by the liberals of America).
| Silvia wrote: | | eo11 wrote: |
Silvia this statement I am sorry to say is incorrect.
Research it and you will NOT find the seperation of church and state to mean at all what you are suggesting.
The founding fathers wrote God into ever facet of our Government as a Judeo Christian God fearing nation.
In God we Trust
One Nation Under God
What you will find, that is commonly used by the ACLU to suggest the seperation, are detailed writings that government will stay the hell out of churches.
I am in no way dismssing your beliefs but I am politely challenging your factual correctness on this individual issue. |
Amendment I to the constitution of the United States reads:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Now we can spend all day spinning their reasons for our personal ends. But it is clear to me that the Constitution prohibits the US government from preaching, even if it's to the choir. To me, the motivation of the founding fathers is not nearly as relevant as what they actually wrote down. Why? Because one of the other very important things they wrote down was the ability to ammend the constitution. They knew from the start that someday their motivation wouldn't be the same as the motivation of those who followed. So they put the mechanism in place to allow us to change - and they phrased the constitution and Bill of Rights as cleanly as possible, so as to make them applicable to as many as possible for as long as possible. You notice they don't explicitly call out any Christian religions, nor did they discuss the Church of England. Their language is clear and still applicable today. So whenever someone suggests to me that the founding fathers are turning in their graves, I think the opposite. That they would indeed be surprised to see what we've done with it, but that they would be proud of how we have taken their wisdom and grown and adapted it to where we are today. I know I am.
Here is a well written thread refuting your argument, though, in the end, we can spend all day spinning motivation. I submit it's the words written down that count:
http://www.slate.com/?id=2067499
An interesting excerpt: "When Benjamin Franklin proposed during the Constitutional Convention that the founders begin each day of their labors with a prayer to God for guidance, his suggestion was defeated."
The founding fathers were Christian, yes, but they thought prayer had no place in government and wrote the first amendment accordingly.
As for "In God We Trust," that phrase has been off and on money for ages: http://www.2theadvocate.com/opinion/12806027.html . "Under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954. The phrase doesn't have the long and glorious history your post seems to suggest. And it was recently contested. I imagine it will come and go much like "In God We Trust." There have been people wanting church as a part of government since day 1 and that's one thing I don't see changing any time soon. |
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Lord Clarke
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Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 400
Location: South of the North Pole
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Separation of Church and State is NOT in the Constitution.
Please find it? It actually came from letters between Thomas Jefferson and James Madison some 25 years later. These are not, nor have ever been, part of our Constitution. Not even an amendment. What school did you go to?
| Silvia wrote: | | Our Christian founding fathers explicitly wrote separation of church and state in the constitution. In your words: If you don't like it, leave and find a place that better suits your needs - and for goodness sakes quit whining about it. The Taliban is an excellent example of a place where religion is integrated with government. I imagine you would have been comfortable there; too bad we overthrew their government. Though you might have been stoned to death if you hadn't covered your hair. Then again, you could get blown up if you get an abortion here in the states, so maybe things are just the way you'd like it already. |
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Lord Clarke
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Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 400
Location: South of the North Pole
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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I think we grew up in the same household EO....
and as a result, I never have gotten in any trouble with the law or otherwise. I was taught right from wrong, and that there are repurcussions if you did wrong.
Timeouts by themselves don't work. You need real repurcussions. A sore butt works. Not all the time. In fact, I have not had to spank my 7 year old or 5 year old in a long while. They learned that if you lie, or contradict your mother, you will be punished. Not saying they are perfect all the time, but they don't get too far out of line either. Then I see kids whose parents don't bother punishing them, or even playing with them, and they are bullies, they strike out for attention, and they are constantly in trouble at school, but that is never enough. We have a kid next door who is exactly like that, and he does not change. He was suspended a few months ago for sucker punching his best friend in class a couple months ago.....4th grade, and suspended for 3 days....and while suspended he rode his bike, played on his WII system, playstation.....asked if he was punished at home....no.....will it happen again? I bet any amount of money it will. Why? Because the parents don't care.
Maybe if they punished him, and took him to church, gave him something other than material things, he would know these things. He needs some moral upbringing and church provides that.....and the rod and staff provide him guidance when he strays from the path.
| eo11 wrote: | | queen wrote: | | Moth wrote: | In the defense of secular schooling. We don't need to teach only one religion, there are more than one, no reason to be ignorant. And God also caused the crusades which were nasty and brutish. No lovin' thy neighbour there.
It's a global village nowadays darlin'. God isn't not allowed in schools, he just needs other religious buddies with him (or at least he does in Canada). Complaining how the lack of God in our lives caused degeneration and moral ineptitude kind of erases any need for self-regulation. If you want to complain how many bad children are out there because of video games and media and whatnot, try comparing that number first to the millions who don't get reported on because we are well and normal and productive people. I can't say as a fact, but I'm relatively sure there is a hugely disproportionate number of normal people versus the insanely chaotic. |
I would CERTAINLY hope that this is true....else there is no longer any hope.
btw....God did not start crusades....men did.....
just like they start wars.....because men like to fight
seems they are not happy unless they are fighting with or bombing someone.....
Self regulation must be TAUGHT before it can be put into practice.......unfortunately, not a lot of that happens these days.
So many are content to blame others for problems that started at thier own hand...
or don't even REALIZE that the problem started at thier own hand.
look....things were crazy when i was growing up, too.....but they weren't the same as they are today. |
when I was growing up if I got in trouble my dad tanned my backside
I did not get counciling, or time out, or grounded, I got beat down
and I am a better man for it today
If I EVER forget (and I mean now at 35) to say yes mam, no mam, or to open a door for a woman my momma will still slap me
and I am a better man for it today
If I got in trouble at school they paddled my buttocks and then told my parents which brought us back to step one
and I am a better man for it today
discipline is a big part of what is missing, because the ACLU and human rights groups took away a parent's God given right to beat the hell out of their kids.
if your not beatign the hell out guess where it is folks? |
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Silvia
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Lord Clarke wrote: | Separation of Church and State is NOT in the Constitution.
Please find it? It actually came from letters between Thomas Jefferson and James Madison some 25 years later. These are not, nor have ever been, part of our Constitution. Not even an amendment. What school did you go to? |
Amendment I to the constitution of the United States reads:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Spin it how you like.
I am not going to continue any debate with you on this topic. You are RUDE. If you can't find some common courtesy within yourself, don't inflict your lack upon me. |
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Lord Clarke
football friend
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 400
Location: South of the North Pole
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Take some Midol Silvia.....where have I been rude to you?
You are the one spinning it....an establishment of religion is like the Church of England....by having a prayer at the inaugeration of the President is him expressing his religious faith, nothing else. Same thing as at the commencement of a high school graduation (that ACLU suit was against my high school....either my graduation or my sister's...cannot remember).....its not saying "hey, worship the Christian faith".
So please, get off your high horse. I have never been rude to you.....but if you want, I can certainly try.
Just because I think you are mislead, and misinformed, does not make me rude.
| Silvia wrote: | | Lord Clarke wrote: | Separation of Church and State is NOT in the Constitution.
Please find it? It actually came from letters between Thomas Jefferson and James Madison some 25 years later. These are not, nor have ever been, part of our Constitution. Not even an amendment. What school did you go to? |
Amendment I to the constitution of the United States reads:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Spin it how you like.
I am not going to continue any debate with you on this topic. You are RUDE. If you can't find some common courtesy within yourself, don't inflict your lack upon me. |
[size=18]size]
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Last edited by Lord Clarke on Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lord Clarke
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Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 400
Location: South of the North Pole
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Hey Queen, show me in this thread where I was rude to Silvia?
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loangod
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Posts: 73
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well done clarke! Her Highness can't find were you've rude because you haven't. Establishing religion means controlling and dictating, but absolutely does not mean separation thereof, unlike what Silvia wants to believe. She can profess she's not at left wing wacko and is open minded, but her posts say otherwise.....if you can sift through all her micro-analysis.
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