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Silvia
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| eo11 wrote: |
Silvia this statement I am sorry to say is incorrect.
Research it and you will NOT find the seperation of church and state to mean at all what you are suggesting.
The founding fathers wrote God into ever facet of our Government as a Judeo Christian God fearing nation.
In God we Trust
One Nation Under God
What you will find, that is commonly used by the ACLU to suggest the seperation, are detailed writings that government will stay the hell out of churches.
I am in no way dismssing your beliefs but I am politely challenging your factual correctness on this individual issue. |
Amendment I to the constitution of the United States reads:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Now we can spend all day spinning their reasons for our personal ends. But it is clear to me that the Constitution prohibits the US government from preaching, even if it's to the choir. To me, the motivation of the founding fathers is not nearly as relevant as what they actually wrote down. Why? Because one of the other very important things they wrote down was the ability to ammend the constitution. They knew from the start that someday their motivation wouldn't be the same as the motivation of those who followed. So they put the mechanism in place to allow us to change - and they phrased the constitution and Bill of Rights as cleanly as possible, so as to make them applicable to as many as possible for as long as possible. You notice they don't explicitly call out any Christian religions, nor did they discuss the Church of England. Their language is clear and still applicable today. So whenever someone suggests to me that the founding fathers are turning in their graves, I think the opposite. That they would indeed be surprised to see what we've done with it, but that they would be proud of how we have taken their wisdom and grown and adapted it to where we are today. I know I am.
Here is a well written thread refuting your argument, though, in the end, we can spend all day spinning motivation. I submit it's the words written down that count:
http://www.slate.com/?id=2067499
An interesting excerpt: "When Benjamin Franklin proposed during the Constitutional Convention that the founders begin each day of their labors with a prayer to God for guidance, his suggestion was defeated."
The founding fathers were Christian, yes, but they thought prayer had no place in government and wrote the first amendment accordingly.
As for "In God We Trust," that phrase has been off and on money for ages: http://www.2theadvocate.com/opinion/12806027.html . "Under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954. The phrase doesn't have the long and glorious history your post seems to suggest. And it was recently contested. I imagine it will come and go much like "In God We Trust." There have been people wanting church as a part of government since day 1 and that's one thing I don't see changing any time soon. |
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Silvia
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| queen wrote: | Ouch Silvia....
I posted it for discussion...not as an invitation for a personal attack.
I simply thought it would be something that a few people would be interested in. |
I'm sorry hun, I would ordinarily never say such horrible things to a person. But I felt your other post: "Too bad more Americans..." demanded such a response. You submitted that people don't have the right to complain in that post, yet, here you are, complaining (good for you!!!). As you were in that post. You asserted that people don't have the right to make change in that post, yet, here you are, trying to make change (yippee!). As you were in that post. I was throwing the words back at you, attempting to shock you out of such statements. Cruel words, and I ached to say them. But they are the words you say to so many other faceless masses. In my field of work, I meet sooooo many foreigners, most of whom are not citizens. And they are always reticent to criticize the US. They always tell me "I'm glad to be here and it's not my place to criticize." It takes encouragement from me before they voice their opinion, which, contrary to popular (liberal?) belief, it's not always negative. Even the French I've met are reticent to criticize. In fact, I believe it's internal pressure, not external pressure, that makes the US so welcoming to people of other nations and creedos. I don't think the Mexicans have told us "you need to speak Spanish," it's the citizens of the US, saying, "Hey, look over here, we've got a new group joining our glorious melting pot. Let's make 'em comfy, shall we?" Anyway, perhaps this would be better continued in the other thread. I apologize, with all the depth of my being, for saying words that to me are an anathema and to you a cruelty. I hope, with all the depth of my being, that you will find the love and forgiveness to not say such words to others, known or unknown personally to you.
| queen wrote: | | And if you want to know what I think about abortion...lets start a new thread...because I imagine that could REALLY get interesting. |
I find it interesting that everyone seems to be interpreting that sentence to mean I want a debate about abortion. I was asserting that we already live in a heavily influenced Christian society, with many of the features of a government in which church and state are not separated. A serious flaw in my argument, that I'm surprised no one has pointed out, is that the US jails abortion bombers. The Taliban did not jail stone throwers. But I submit that a Christian government, integrated as the Taliban was, would not jail the US abortion bombers; that we would be no better than the Taliban.
You say no? I know so very many Muslims, who all tell me that Islam is a religion of love, just as Christianity. That their bombers are extremists, just as our bombers are. I submit that once government integrates with religion, the extremists in religion hold the day, as they have historically in Christian governments, and as they do today, in Islamic governments. People point to the Crusades, but there are more recent historical examples of extremist Christians doing government sanctioned murder. Look at the Catholic vs. Protestant murders, leading to and a part of the establishment of the Church of England. The terrible social strife in Ireland today is a painful artefact of when church and state were integrated in the British Empire. The Christians have had their day ruling governments. And they failed, because they were humans enforcing the will of their god. Our founding fathers saw the Christian history and knew their only choice was a government that came from the people, not from a god; a government of humility, acknowledging our humanity and our terrible capacity to believe ourselves divine. |
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loangod
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Silvia, you really are all knowing :roll: and into yourself, you worldly person you. :wink: As for seperation of church and state, your comments come right out of the ACLU arguement. The Constitution in essense just says the government will not run the Church (i.e. the Church of England), but never says Religion can't be in government. What you have posted in no way says that either, but rather, just the same old liberal spin. Sooooo, in God We Trust. :P
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Silvia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| loangod wrote: | | Silvia, you really are all knowing :roll: and into yourself, you worldly person you. :wink: As for seperation of church and state, your comments come right out of the ACLU arguement. The Constitution in essense just says the government will not run the Church (i.e. the Church of England), but never says Religion can't be in government. What you have posted in no way says that either, but rather, just the same old liberal spin. Sooooo, in God We Trust. :P |
I simply fail to see how you think the founding fathers wanted prayer in schools when the question was posed to them if they wanted prayer in government conventions. They answered no. How do you draw the conclusion that they want prayers in school? It seems the question was posed to them, nearly directly, and they said no, pretty clearly.
Regardless, I submit, again, that they knew our motivations wouldn't be the same as theirs and wrote the constitution accordingly. Their language is clean, well written, and still applicable. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Since our schools are a part of our federal government, it is inappropriate to have teacher led prayers. Such is akin to a Church of England - a state sponsored god-worshipping activity led by government officials. Schools still have student Christian groups, who gather together using school facilities to pray. The distinction is that joining a Christian group is voluntary, saying a teacher led prayer in school is not. The first is the citizen right to gather, the second is a government sponsored religion. The distinction is crystal clear IMHO.
The use of references and factual information makes me all knowing and narcissistic? At least I didn't say "Study this, learn from it, and come back with more questions when you understand." Please support your assertion, I am open to criticism of my debating style. |
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loangod
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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So how does "establishing religion" have anything to do with prayer in school, prayers in congress, the 10 commandments being posted in government buildings, etc.? What I believe in means is that government will not start and run religion. Teachers leading prayers, though I don't every remember that, doesn't indicate the establishment of religion. And are teachers really government employees even though govermnent provides income? That perhaps can be debated.
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Wandering Nick
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Guild Wars is to Growing Guilds as The United states is to a dying guild.
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Silvia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| loangod wrote: | | So how does "establishing religion" have anything to do with prayer in school, prayers in congress, the 10 commandments being posted in government buildings, etc.? What I believe in means is that government will not start and run religion. Teachers leading prayers, though I don't every remember that, doesn't indicate the establishment of religion. And are teachers really government employees even though govermnent provides income? That perhaps can be debated. |
You've made some very well phrased points, I salute an excellent opponent! :wink: Nothing like kissing bum to make everyone like me more. hahahaha. :wink: Nah, seriously, well phrased.
To answer:
First, a quick digression: I attended a high school where a prayer was read over the intercom every morning by a student or member of the staff. Participating in that prayer was not optional - we were required to stand and listen with attention, strongly encouraged to say "Amen." So, school prayers, officially sanctioned and with required attendance, are a thing of the US today.
You're right that prayer in school, etc, isn't anywhere near the level of Church of England. But to me, the critical question that best distinguishes is: "Is this a government sanctioned activity that people are required to participate in?" Once a person is required by the government to participate in a religious activity, I believe the line of "establishment of religion" has been crossed. Establishment of a church, no, but it is establishment of religion.
Are teachers really government employees? Hmmm, well, OK, good point, it can be debated. BUT, I submit the following chain of rules and laws:
1) Children under the age of 16 are required to attend school.
2) The federal and state governments have provided public schools which children can go to for requirement (1).
3) Once a student attends a public school, they are required to respect their teachers and follow teacher orders.
4) Students in violation of (3) can be sent to the principal or superintendant for punitive action, including expulsion.
5) An expelled student must still be educated, taking us back to (1).
Therefore, a teacher who places the requirement upon their students to pray has the weight of the federal government behind them - the legal authority to punish children who do not pray. Since the law grants them the ability to punish, they are beholden to the law established to regulate government. Attendance of school is not optional, and following teacher commands is not optional. A teacher who leads a prayer in school is legally forcing students to worship god. Legal enforcement of god worship is prohibited by the constitution. |
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Silvia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Incidentally, I am all for religion classes in school. To pretend that religion isn't an important facet of so many people's lives is utter lunacy. Of course I'm opposed to required attendance of religion classes, but some sort of 'choose among these classes which include religious studies to fulfill your social studies core' would be in order IMHO. Of course a religion class has to deal with issues such as the "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster," but I think it's critical that children are given the opportunity to study such a fundamental aspect of human experience. |
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Silvia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Wandering Nick wrote: | | Guild Wars is to Growing Guilds as The United states is to a dying guild. |
Nick, you would be a great member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That plus you could wear pirate clothes all year round out of fear that his noodly appendage would otherwise reach out and strike you down.
Seriously, when is GW going to come out with a pirate profession? Seriously people.... GW is sooooo biased towards Ninjas, talk about discrimination of the worst kind! Dare we say ANet sponsored ninja worshipping activities? Isn't there something in the user agreement that forbids that? |
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queen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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lolololol......very good...very good.....Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster......
nothing if not creative.... :D
*hugs* silvia.....
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eo11
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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George Washington...
"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion…Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.."
Noah Webster...
"No truth is more evident to any mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
Benjamin Rush...
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments... Without religion, I believe that learning does much mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."
John Adams
"…it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand."
Thomas Jefferson
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
James Madison
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future ...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. "
John Adams
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
Now you can if you wish continue to pull passages from the ACLU playbook, or Das Kapital on which the ACLU principals were founded.
I will however turn to the writing and quotes of the actual men whose blood, sweat, and tears allow me to sit in this chair a fairly debate such with you.
the Founding Fathers meant to give of the freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion
I cannot help but think many of those men would begin to talk of over throw if they saw the mocekry the ACLU and the liberal democrats of society have made our once great government
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queen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvia wrote: |
In fact, I believe it's internal pressure, not external pressure, that makes the US so welcoming to people of other nations and creedos. I don't think the Mexicans have told us "you need to speak Spanish," it's the citizens of the US, saying, "Hey, look over here, we've got a new group joining our glorious melting pot. Let's make 'em comfy, shall we?" |
I agree w/ that....only wonder WHY we feel the need to do so. It makes no sense to me. If we wanted to make EVERY single minority who has placed a foot on American soil "comfy".... well....they are gonna need a few more numbers to push
1 if you speak American
2 for Spanish
3 for NATIVE American
4 for French......
5 for German
6 for Chinese
7 for Japanese
8 for Russian
9 for Italian.....
oopssssssssssssssssssssss...........
Anyway.....I simply think that America needs to stop....and think about the CORE of the Country
We need to take a good hard look at the changes that have been made in the last 10 years AND how they have affected the American people AS a people....
and then....unless I am mistaken, start finding a way to rework things
because that is needed......soon
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loangod
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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And if someone wants to work for me, they are required to respect and obey my orders, they don't have to like me, but respect and obey. If not, they're gone.....and not with any authority given by government. So I really don't get the part about obeying a teacher. They should as you or I should respect a person of higher authority in our jobs. I guess I never heard of a teacher requiring children to pray in Public schools....parochial maybe, but not public.
Since I work for a bank, and we are regulated heavily by various government agencies and told what we can do and what we can't, does that make me a government employee too? :roll: :mrgreen: :wink:
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loangod
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| queen wrote: | | Silvia wrote: |
In fact, I believe it's internal pressure, not external pressure, that makes the US so welcoming to people of other nations and creedos. I don't think the Mexicans have told us "you need to speak Spanish," it's the citizens of the US, saying, "Hey, look over here, we've got a new group joining our glorious melting pot. Let's make 'em comfy, shall we?" |
I agree w/ that....only wonder WHY we feel the need to do so. It makes no sense to me. If we wanted to make EVERY single minority who has placed a foot on American soil "comfy".... well....they are gonna need a few more numbers to push
1 if you speak American
2 for Spanish
3 for NATIVE American
4 for French......
5 for German
6 for Chinese
7 for Japanese
8 for Russian
9 for Italian.....
oopssssssssssssssssssssss...........
Anyway.....I simply think that America needs to stop....and think about the CORE of the Country
We need to take a good hard look at the changes that have been made in the last 10 years AND how they have affected the American people AS a people....
and then....unless I am mistaken, start finding a way to rework things
because that is needed......soon |
You forgot "push 0" for Arabic. :P
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Wandering Nick
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvia wrote: | | Wandering Nick wrote: | | Guild Wars is to Growing Guilds as The United states is to a dying guild. |
Nick, you would be a great member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That plus you could wear pirate clothes all year round out of fear that his noodly appendage would otherwise reach out and strike you down.
Seriously, when is GW going to come out with a pirate profession? Seriously people.... GW is sooooo biased towards Ninjas, talk about discrimination of the worst kind! Dare we say ANet sponsored ninja worshipping activities? Isn't there something in the user agreement that forbids that? |
Why would I make a great member of the Church Of Flying Spaghetti? Yay Pirate clothes!
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